Curse

CrispyCritter · Mar 19, 2006, 04:17 PM // 16:17

Just curious, what's everyone's opinion about running snares in GvG?

Also, does anyone have any suggestions for a good snare build (or is it even worth running a character dedicated to snares)? I know Cripshot rangers used to be THE thing in high lvl GvG, but it got nerfed pretty hard in the last skill balance update.

It seems to me that rangers are still potentially useful for this, as they can use Oath Shot + Pin Down rather than Cripshot, and just run high Expertise to offset the energy costs. Barbed Trap could work too.

Other than the rangers, elementalists have snares as well, in both the water and the earth lines (Grasping Earth, Iron Mist, Ward Against Foes).

Warriors only have a couple snares (Hamstring and Axe Rake), but they do have some anti-kiting skills such as Bull's Strike and Bull's Charge which can also be pretty effective.

I know mesmers also have some snares in the Illusion line, but it seems like these are rarely used due to the long recharge, single target effect, and the high energy cost.

Personally, I like to bring Bull's Strike on the wars, and we usually bring Ward Against Foes as well, as it's a ward and hence can't be removed (also has an area effect).

So, what snares do you usually bring to GvG?

Patrograd · Mar 19, 2006, 04:23 PM // 16:23

Gale, deep freeze, ice spikes, crippling shot in our current build. Need all of them too

Generally these are spread out around the build, I dont think a dedicated snare character is going to be all *that* useful

icemonkey · Mar 19, 2006, 05:20 PM // 17:20

agreed

BTW my guild used to run an illusion mesmer with crip anguish, and burdens as a runner and well was not bad was not outstanding the only really good thing about it is if you wanted to kill a runner it was pretty good at taht. Stack 3 or so degen and slow down hexes on them they can barely move and are degening plus taking all the heat your warriors can dish out.

zoozoc · Mar 20, 2006, 05:43 AM // 05:43

cripple shot+apply poison is still a viable option in gvg, it is much better then oath shot+pin down. Another intersting option are water snares or bulls strike.

twicky_kid · Mar 20, 2006, 05:49 AM // 05:49

Adrenaline spikes go with cripple shot, shock, and bull strike

Hex pressure builds go with water ele

Never use mes snares recharge too long

JR · Mar 20, 2006, 10:07 AM // 10:07

We tend to run water snares, occasionally crip-shot rangers, and most of the time warriors with Bull's Strike/Bull's Charge. Not a huge fan of Ward Against Foes as a snare, as you can't really target it on a specific person.

TheArrow · Mar 20, 2006, 02:22 PM // 14:22

Ward Against Foes works better as an area snare, you don't really try and target a single person with it. It typically gets used in a choke point area where you can't afford to have reduced mobility. For general snaring a Cripshot Ranger is still the best although a water Elementalist with Deep Freeze adds nice pressure.

JR · Mar 20, 2006, 02:36 PM // 14:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheArrow

Ward Against Foes works better as an area snare, you don't really try and target a single person with it. It typically gets used in a choke point area where you can't afford to have reduced mobility.

Indeed, which is why as I said I am not a huge fan. I think it is much more important to snare specific targets, than to attempt to snare anyone in a certain area. It probably is just a matter of play styles.

However, to the OP: I do think snares can be very critical in GvG. Being able to snare targets for your warriors, or incoming flag runners to hold for morale, or warriors harassing your monks... All of that is pretty key. Not to mention against any kind of decent split build you are at a huge disadvantage unless you can snare.

Greedy Gus · Mar 20, 2006, 02:55 PM // 14:55

In my opinion, the nerfed crippling shot is not worth using. If you only have two skills on your bar, apply poison and crippling shot, even at 14 expertise you can only do about 6 crippling shots per minute (assuming a bit more than 2 uses of apply poison). If you use a few interrupts, a few distortions, a troll unguent or two, you only have energy to do 2 or 3 crippling shots per minute. So when the energy is clearly the limiting factor rather than the recharge, pin down looks a whole lot better, because they cost the same amount. Those numbers are for the long-term, but in the short-term, you still can't spam crippling shot like you used to, due to the low max energy on the ranger.

TheArrow · Mar 20, 2006, 03:02 PM // 15:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

In my opinion, the nerfed crippling shot is not worth using. If you only have two skills on your bar, apply poison and crippling shot, even at 14 expertise you can only do about 6 crippling shots per minute (assuming a bit more than 2 uses of apply poison). If you use a few interrupts, a few distortions, a troll unguent or two, you only have energy to do 2 or 3 crippling shots per minute. So when the energy is clearly the limiting factor rather than the recharge, pin down looks a whole lot better, because they cost the same amount. Those numbers are for the long-term, but in the short-term, you still can't spam crippling shot like you used to, due to the low max energy on the ranger.

What? You mean you don't BiP your Rangers?

BiPped Cripshot action is key.

Billiard · Mar 20, 2006, 05:28 PM // 17:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheArrow

What? You mean you don't BiP your Rangers?

BiPped Cripshot action is key.

If you have BiP already in your build then maybe this makes sense - but to spend two out of 8 elites on snares seems a bit expensive to me.

Any as JR stated, I tend to like Water Eles more now for snares, especially if you are running heavy hexes.

Byron · Mar 20, 2006, 06:49 PM // 18:49

I've seen a lot of good guilds switching out a crip shot ranger for an E/Mo heal party spammer with ice spikes and deep freeze for snaring action. This could be devestating when piled on top of other hexes (eg degen or migraine), so that will ikely become the new answer.

The 2 E/Mo team may be the new build to watch for, IMO. 2 heal parties and/or martyr and/or draw conditions, perhaps with Blood is power to boot, along with air power and water hex capability, seems like a delicious support group.

Vindexus · Mar 20, 2006, 08:51 PM // 20:51

I absolutely love water eles now. Deep Freeze has a HUGE AoE, and snares for a full 10s. And not just 50%, but 66%. I'd probably use this skill if it did no damage.

Crippling Shot is still viable, you just have to run more expertise. And maybe even a lower spec PDrain or Drain Enchantment on your CripShotter.

icemonkey · Mar 20, 2006, 10:07 PM // 22:07

crippling anguish has a 20 second recharge and at 21 second length with 16 illusion there is no recharge problem. The drawback to an illusion mesmer snare is you can snare at most two people consistantly, while a water ele can snare huge groups.

illusion snare is good for stopping a runner: crip anguish, conjur phantasm, imagined burden, ethereal burden, distortion, GG you will win almost every 1v1

Greedy Gus · Mar 21, 2006, 03:15 AM // 03:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vindexus

Crippling Shot is still viable, you just have to run more expertise. And maybe even a lower spec PDrain or Drain Enchantment on your CripShotter.

It's true that you can still find ways to power out those crip shots. But at what point do you have to stand back and say "enough is enough, this character is ridiculous"? For me, running 14/15 expertise + energy management skills to power out a crippling shot that requires heavy marksmanship investment to get a decent duration is past that point.

I do agree with you that those water eles really have the potential to own though

nightrunner · Mar 21, 2006, 05:27 AM // 05:27

I like Deep Freeze with Glyph of Lesser Energy on a Warder, because Deep Freeze's snaring capability isn't linked to Water, and as a Warder there's not much to do besides keeping Wards up and Heal Party (usually, anyway).

Hunter Killer · Mar 21, 2006, 06:29 AM // 06:29

Actually, Ward vs Foes alone is the best skill imo for backline kiting, its easy to kite through and the duration makes it all worthwhile for the one skill/attributes.

For single target snares, cripp shot rangers still fare decently, just not as spammable, but water elementalists is the most viable choice in terms of utility (depending on buid), due to multiple snares that may be chained, and with ether prodigy, they can even have heal party spammability.

Warskull · Mar 21, 2006, 06:32 AM // 06:32

Snares are incredibly useful in GvG. They have a plethora of uses.

1) They enchance your ability to punish retreating enemies. Snaring can help ensure 1-3 kills on the enemy as they retreat.

2) They limit enemy warrior effectiveness. If you get a snare to stick to a warrior he is extremely easily kited and his damage is negated.

3) They stop enemy kiting. If you have warriors on you it hurts, especially if you can't get away.

4) They can be used to secure morale boosts by slowing the enemy flagger and making him more vulnerable to the kill. Many times use of Bull's Strike, Bull's Charge, and water snares have secured us a morale boost.

5) They make you stronger vs a split team. Snares force a split to retreat earlier or risk being wiped.

However just because a skill snares does not mean it should be added. There are both strong snares and weak snares in this game. For example grasping earth isn't a strong skill while deep freeze is crazy good.

Warskull's Quick List of Good Snares
Shard Storm+Ice Spikes (use together for lots of snaring power)
Deep Freeze
Crippling Shot
Spike Trap
Barbed Trap
Ward Against Foes
Axe Rake
Imagined Burden

These obviously aren't the only good snares, but off the top of my head these all are worth looking into if you want snares in your build. Some are more defensive (traps) while others more offensive (Axe Rake) and some are flexible.

For those interested in water eles an FnlD style water ele:
10+1+3 Water Magic
10+1 Energy Storage
11 Healing Prayers

Shard Storm
Ice Spikes
Deep Freeze
Ether Prodigy
Rust (or Blurred Vision)
Heal Party
Purge Signet
Rez Sig (or Rebirth if your build needs a hard rez)

Greedy Gus · Mar 21, 2006, 01:41 PM // 13:41

I'm interested to know how crippling shot makes your short list but pin down doesn't. Do you really find the "cannot be blocked or evaded" to be so important? Currently that's the only solid advantage crippling shot has over pin down without running a ridiculous amount of energy management. Long term cripshot can't be used much (if any) more than pin down, and on the short time it can only be used slightly more often, while pin down cripple lasts longer.

LightningHell · Mar 21, 2006, 01:44 PM // 13:44

That's the point. It can't be evaded.